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August 03, 2002

Carrot The Third


A response to their response to my response to their response to.....oh the hell with it.

This is Part three.
Part one is here.
Part two is here.

The Instapundit bandwith firehose seems to be tapering off a bit, thank god, or dammit, depending on whether I'm thinking about the number of visitors or the times I've been bitch-slapped. In any case, that allows me to respond to the comments one by one rather than as a whole. You can decide for yourself whether that is a good thing or not. As before, thanks for dropping by and allowing us the chance to infect you with our memes.

First up is ...dammit the comments server has crashed. Motherpussbucket. Okay, I wanted to do my visitors first, but ya'll have to wait now. I think Armed Liberal uses Yaccs too, so first up is whatever I find over at Glenn's place. mmmmmmmm......overly familiar.

First up is Pejman who is....hmmm.....let me check the ecosystem to see how much I have to fear/respect/brownnose him....oooooo... a mortal human! And thus more popular than me.

First up is is the esteemed Pejman Yousefzadeh. Women love him. Men want to be like him. His well thought out comments appear in bold. My hesitant, slipshod and under-informed responses appear in italics My comments on my comments will be underlined

Does this guy

This guy? I have a name. 'Tis a silly name, but a name nonetheless. To assuage my wounded feelings, Mr. Yousefzadeh, I will for the remainder of our conversation refer to you as Mr. Pej Dispenser...I'm picturing you with........a...yes, a Homer head.

realize just how hard it is going to be to displace a population of five million people, and then settle them in this country?

Yes, five million at once would be hard. I didn't call for five million Palestinians to arrive at once, en masse. Small numbers first, then more. In any case, I don't think we'd every get to five million before the fact of the new Exodus I like this wordplay, for I am easily amused. made a big impact. As I have written elsewhere, East Germany didnít collapse because all the East Germans left, it collapsed because some of them did. I think the same thing would happen to to PA. In Mr. Dispenser's defense, he has probably not read those words, for they appeared after he commented in the wee hours of the morning.

I realize that this plan was made with the best of intentions, but it just won't work.

Thank you, you're probably right. It definitely won't work if we don't try it.

Why not demand that Jordan and/or Egypt give back that part of land that was supposed to help constitute an independent Palestine when it was created along with Israel in 1948?

That's a great idea. I don't think it will work, but it's worth a try. It would dovetail nicely with mine.

Why not demand that Lebanon, the Gulf states, and Iraq treat their Palestinian populations better, and not like second class dirt?

Also a fine idea, but demanding that people treat other people better doesn't have a real good track record anywhere. As I commented in response to Laurence, before Yaccs took away my comments, bastards! if we treat the Palestinians better than their so-called "Arab Brethren" do, we might find that instead of enemies, we have allies. And no, I'm not suggesting that the whole of the Palestinian people will, Grinch-like, find their hearts growing three sizes that day. But some might. Hell, there are Palestinians helping the Israelis now. We'd be a entire rationalization step down from that.

If they do these things, it would be a lot easier to cause Palestinians to move elsewhere (although it still will not be easy). But relocating most or all of them to America? If only it were that simple.

I've never claimed that my idea was a simple, stand-alone solution. Thanks for the comments, Pejman. You already know this, but that's an excellent blog.

Next: John Tilley. Come on down!

This sounds suspiciously like a "Worthwhile Canadian Initiative".

Oooooooo....that's a fine idea.

I wish Silflay hadn't mentioned Canada as a possible destination. We just might try it.

Well, you've got better beer. They might like it more up there.

Only there would be no restrictions, no monitoring and no deportations for violations of Canadian law.

Canada has laws?

Just a couple of million Palestinians training and mobilizing in Ontario with the financial support of the federal gov.

I don't think we should put them in the same place, and I definitely don't think we should give them much assistance, certainly less than the welfare recipients here get. The Irish found jobs and houses, so did the Italians. The Palestinians can do the same. If we must spend money on them, let it come out of the funds we send to the Middle Eastern Arabs for foreign aid.

Okay, Yaccs is still down, and AL....hmmmmmm calls himself a liberal, comments under the name AL, must be Gore. Al Gore is sending people to my blog! Woo-hoo! AL also uses Yaccs, so I'll update this later with other comments. Keep the fires burning, people!

Aaaaannd we're back. Let's welcome Carey from Cognocentric. Always nice to see a new face, Carey, try to come back early and often.

Here's the problem:

"... Are you welcoming all the oppressed into our land?

No, but the Statue of Liberty is. Besides, those other guys ... [Kashmiris and E.Timorese] ... arenít really bothering us right now."

This is one of the arguments I gave short shrift to. Let's get right to the groin kicking

I'll grant you the remark about the Statue of Liberty (never did see how we squared "Give me your poor ..." with 20th century immigration policies). But what do you think will happen when the Kashmiris, the IRA, the Chechens, the Timorese, the Tamils, or whoever, find out that the surest and quickest way to get a permanent US visa is to pick up a gun or throw a bomb, provided only that they don't get caught?

Well, most of them are going to get caught. Certainly most of the Palestinians do. In any case, they must not only escape Justice, they've got to create a conflagration that burns the US, as this one has. It's not right, but it's the way of the world.

No thanks. Nice idea, but exactly the wrong incentive is being offered.

How about free ice cream? People like ice cream!

Maybe if you said the US will start admitting Palestinians by the thousands or tens of thousands under a special program which is scheduled to begin ten years after the last act of political violence ...

There's no incentive for us to do anything ten years after they've finally calmed down over there. Also, the Palestinians don't seem to understand that argument real well. Israel has been using something akin to it for a while now. But it would make a nice song "And they won't leave home till it's over over there!"

Update: Carey has blogged more on this, and it's pretty good.

You have a good day, Carey. Folks, meet David!. Howaya, David?

My point, so ably twisted by Hraka,

Thanks David, it's easy to dodge about when the guy you're playing against spends most of his time grinding his ax. In any case, I would argue that I simply looked at the same information and reached a different conclusion.

is not that a Palestinian Diaspora will necessarily result in homicide bombings in the United States, but that bringing Palestinians here will not "reform" them, as Hraka's wishful thinking would have it.

If Palestinians are posessed of some unique arabic original sin, then it should infect all of them. Since there are Palestinians here who have yet to blow themselves up in F.A.O. Schwarz, that original sin doesn't exist. If only the Palestinians in the Middle East are the ones who sup hate with their mother's milk, then they are unredeemable and all 10 million be killed, for they cannot be reformed. Is that what you believe? Is genocide the only answer? If it is not, then they can be reformed. If they can be reformed, what better place to do it than the beacon of liberty? In any case, you have looked into the abyss, and been caught. You are the same as the Islamikazes, the same as the Islamofascists, because they also believe that an entire race is evil. They just picked a different race.

Many are here now and hold views just as bad as the "average middle-class Palestinian" in the Middle East, who takes his infant to the equivalent of the KMart Photo Center, to be snapped wearing a gunbelt.

Do you have a picture of an American Palestinian baby dressed up in a suicide outfit? If not, then you are making a statement without supporting evidence. If you do, then CNN will probably give you big bucks. In any case, until American muslims start committing terrorist acts, they get the benefit of the doubt. Speech is not action. Speech suppressed leads to action, though. Which would you prefer? My, that sounds familiar. Getting lazy, there, 'wig

Location does not change a person's basic beliefs.

Untrue, As the master said "Changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes".

The idea that living in a pink house and having plenty of cash and DVDs rather than living in a hovel will transform anyone into a quasi-Republican is not only laughable, but profoundly perverse.

Worked on me. Except for the pink house. That changes people into John Cougar Mellencamp.

The reason is that the idea is based on Marx's notion that the tools of production condition one's thinking rather than vice-versa.

Dude. End of history? Cold war over? Communism defeated? And you're looking to Marx for inspiration?

The Palestinians who are here now and are peaceful, did not arrive full of hatred for the United States and then become "reformed"; those of them who came here did so precisely because they didn't need to be reformed.

You know, I bet that if we asked them if they wanted to emigrate, before they actually did emigrate, mind you, that their answer would have been yes. Also, I don't hear a lot of them demanding their "Right of Return"

The reason they changed their material condition and location was because of their ideas - versus a new location and material condition being thrust upon them and, magically, changing their ideas.

My point exactly. We need to get new ideas into the Pali's in the occupied territories. We can't do it while they are over there, because over there their leaders kill them when they step out of line. We need to remove them from their leadership, or the leadership from them. It's possible to do both at once.

In short, the ones who want to be here for the right reason *already are here*; to the extent any Palestinian remains in the Middle East more or less voluntarily, he or she is irredeemable.

You assume that the Palestinians remaining in the Middle East are there voluntarily. We have immigration quotas. I bet the one for Palestinians is full every single year.

Giving someone a (chance at) a nice American house, a nice neighborhood school, wads of cash, a professional career, and all the showgirls boobs he can gawk at, does not transform him into an American patriot. Just ask Mohammed Atta ... oh, wait, you can't.

Nice punch at the end, David. Good use of the language. Atta rented his house, didn't bring his kids, got his wads of cash from terrorists, had a career as a terrorist and there is no such thing as "all the showgirl's boobs you can gawk at." That number is infinite. Other than that, you got a point. Except that your case study didn't have enough subjects, and thus is inadequate for the conclusion you draw.

Have a good weekend David. I'm sure I'll see you real soon.

Ngnat is up from her nap. I'll be back later folks, so hold your abuse until then. And remember "I love you"


Hey, I've got a moment! Hi d smith!

You put up a good defense,

Thanks! It's a standard bob and weave, leavened with cheap shots whenever they present themselves

but I think you're still overly optimistic about the influence of American culture.

Well, the influx of American culture absolutely terrifies the French, but so does a light wind from the east. But when was the last time you had a Arabic soda pop, or watched a Palestinian movie?. We are the nuclear bomb of cultures, baby.

The 9/11 hijackers lived here for a while before they attacked, didn't they?

You've been talking to David, haven't you?

We've got Islamic schools in America that teach the evils of the Jews.

And no suicide bombers.

We've got crackdowns on Moslem businessmen and Moslem charities in America sending money to terrorist organizations abroad.

And no suicide bombers.

You underestimate the strength of their beliefs.

I can't imagine that they're any stonger than those people who try to sell me the Watchtower ever week. I think you're making the mistake of treating 10 million people as a monolithic block. On one end are the Islamikazes. One the other are these guys. Not all Palestinians want to kill you.

I can't understand why anyone would want to make them America's problem.

They're already our problem.

Hell, their Moslem neighbors don't want them.

Again, if no one wants you, and someone offers you friendship, don't you think you might be more kindly disposed to them? Jesus, do you have something to add here?

I was hungry and you gave me to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger and you took me in, naked and you dressed me, sick and you visited me, imprisoned and you came to visit me.

Man, that was cheap. Felt good, though.

How many American Moslem friends do you have?

Dunno. Never though to ask. Don't know how many Baptist friends I have either. The number is more than one in each case, now that I think about it.

Do you ever ask them what their thoughts on Israel are?

We're usually too drunk to talk about serious stuff. He does bitch about profiling, though. Wait, do you mean the muslim?

Have you suggested that we bring the Palestinians here in order to weaken Palestinian resistance?

Do you think that would make a difference? Even if it pissed him off, he's not going to go out and blow himself up at the mall. He's an American.

Have you suggested that we call them detainees and make them clean out the icee machines?

Well, he does need help in the store.

Moment over. Green Mile beckoning. I hear it's long, so I'll see you tomorrow. I haven't forgotten you, Malus. Nor you, Katzman.

Final Update: The Green Mile is the most interminable good movie I have ever seen. Upon further reflection, I have decided that possibly I will forget you guys. I think I've addressed most of Joe's arguments. Joe, if you disagree drop me a note and I'll cobble something together. I suspect that you don't care either way, which is fine with me.

Malus, It's late, but what the hell.

Huh? Perhaps I'm missing something but this reply seems completely unresponsive.

Yes it was. You gave me a six word post, so I didn't have a lot to address. You suggested that it was not our problem to solve. I dismissed it with a joke, because I think that most people read it, referenced 9/11, and also dismissed it. Your expansion of your post here makes more sense.

You're suggesting a vast and risky undertaking unprecedented in American history; you'll have to offer a better defense than this.

It doesn't have to start out big. Indeed, I don't think it should.

Look, my point was simply that America didnít create this problem -- if anything it's the Brits who should clean up the mess.

It's my personal belief that the Brits gave up empire about three generations too early, but that's not going to make me any more popular. In any case, they don't have the muscle anymore. We do.

America isnít suffering from this situation

9/11. You could argue that 9/11 has nothing to do with this, and you could make a case. But it would be crazy to suggest that we can let the pot boil without it ever harming us.

-- yes, our Israeli allies are, but Palestinian terrorism doesnít hurt the US, and once their Iraqi supporters are vaporized,

That's us solving the problem. Make up your mind

the Palestinians will be in even less of a position to do harm. Given that we didnít create this problem, that we donít suffer from it,

Given that we're already suffered from it, and are almost guaranteed to suffer from it in future. I have different givens, you see.

and that we are poised to address it by other means,

When you don't know what works, and we don't yet, seeing as how the problem is not solved, you should try lots of things, rather than betting everything on one approach.

I just think that this proposal makes very little sense.

Proposal? Damn. I could have sworn I wrote that in the imperative.

Other posters objected to the "Whats." I won't even touch that. I donít think there's any reason Why.

Pray you never find one. Pray as well that you never say that to someone who has.

Aaaand we're out. Thanks to all and sundry. That was a pretty fun 60 or so hours.

Posted by Bigwig at August 3, 2002 03:11 PM | TrackBack
Postscript:
First time visitor to House Hraka? Wondering if everything we produce could possibly be as brilliant/stupid/evil/pedantic/insipid/inspired as the post you just read? Check out the Hraka Essentials, the (mostly) reader-selected guide to Hraka's best posts, and decide for yourself.
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